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Post by BK on Nov 21, 2016 21:28:12 GMT -5
While I totally agree that Ana and the other women on Velvet don't look as good this season, I wanted to get the facts since we are talking about a design house. I'm not an expert BY ANY MEANS on fashion history, so anyone feel free to chime in or correct me if you know better, but I've done a little online research to find out more about the changes from the early to the mid-60s (keeping in mind too that Madrid was maybe a step behind London, Paris and even New York, at least as discussed on Velvet itself).
First, surprisingly (to me at least), is that Ana is wearing what were then considered mini-skirts. Mini-skirts were anything knee length or shorter. What we think of as a mini today then was considered a micro mini (at least according to the Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising (aka FIDM) museum website). Although the miniskirt was introduced by Mary Quant in 1960, it wasn't widely popular until 1965 (says the FIDM). The shorter lengths were worn with opaque tights, and probably even for someone in fashion wouldn't be considered appropriate for work (or maybe even Ana's age--I suspect "young" really means teens and early-twenties, not mid-thirties). The sleeveless skirt suit was definitely a fashionable look, and not just office appropriate--elsewhere I found a picture of Eric Clapton and George Harrison's ex-wife (she was married to them both) who was a favorite of Mary Quant (the original mini designer) in a skirt suit with EXACTLY the same cuts as most of Ana's clothes this season: a sleeveless coordinating top and bottom, with super rectangular overall shape consisting of a straight skirt and boxy top.
Other than than skirt length/width, the big revolution was that women stopped wearing corsets (whether built in to their dresses or separate from them) precisely because the cuts became looser and more shapeless--think of Twiggy or Edie Sedgwick in those mod, mini dresses. There was definitely a reason they were waif types! Basically: mid-fifties, dresses pushed the body into an hourglass shape, in part by having a very cinched waist and in part very pleated and flared skirt (sometimes also with crinolines); late 50s/early 60s, the rise of the "sack dress" (which Raul refers to in his very first visit to Velvet), where the dress is more of a tube, just skimming the body, and maybe has a belt to give some shape; and then by the mid-60s, dresses became even less defined by an hourglass, were often cut into straight rectangles or A shapes, jackets/blazers as well as dresses were boxy, and designers played around more with overall shapes independent of the body. Balenciaga (who was Spanish/Basque) even developed a special kind of silk called gazar to make a trapezoid wedding gown and a four-sided cocktail dress, neither of which I had seen before but which I absolutely recommend google image searching for immediately!! They are beautiful and crazy, but I will say they bear little relationship to the shape of a woman's body! Though these are both obviously super haute couture and extreme examples, the trend of not being body conscious is true down to what women were actually wearing.
Another thing I didn't know is that stylish boots and socks didn't become part of fashion until the later 60s. Because "mini" (i.e., knee-length and above) skirts weren't popular until 1965, designers didn't really start dressing the leg until after that. Fashion historians usually point to Courreges's spring 1964 runway show, where his models wore flat white boots, as the beginning of the trend, but it didn't trickle down from the runway for a few years. Style news coverage in the US and UK for boots in 1968 and hosiery in 1969 noted the trends you mention of go-go boots and knee socks with patterns (though they mention a lot of women started wearing tights/hose instead of stockings earlier, in part because then they didn't have to wear girdles and in part because if their skirts were short the top of the stocking (i.e., where it clipped to the girdle) would show). While Audrey Hepburn stayed a pinnacle of style, her most iconic looks you (might) have in mind are probably from the fifties or early 60s (e.g., Roman Holiday (1953), Sabrina (1954), Funny Face (1957), Breakfast at Tiffany's (1961))--by the mid 60s she was also wearing rectangular dresses, without a waist. (Obviously I'm sure there are exceptions to this, but I looked at her first and second wedding dresses, some magazine fashion shoots, etc). Although even though Hepburn started wearing slim pants and ballet flats in the 50s, I think they remained fashion forward and definitely popular though most of the 60s. I have to say the pants they had PE/Ana in, briefly, in this past episode were HORRIFIC. So so so unflattering. And not noticeably 60s? Or maybe I was too agog at how completely ugly and awful they were to see anything else.
Clara has more of the color and pattern that was on trend for street style of the mid-60s, as I understand it. Bright colors, plaid, and geometric patterns definitely were hot. Rather than the general 60s looks, to me it seems they've modeled Ana after Jackie Kennedy: the pillbox hats, pastel colors, boxy suits (with straight skirts), big buttons, trapeze coats, even down to the oversize sunglasses and pearls in the opening scene of the season. That's a more conservative style icon (in the sense that the first lady has to maintain a kind of image that's way more traditional) than a designer would need to have, and some of the "Jackie O" looks we think of are from a little earlier. JFK's campaign was during 1960; it was 1963 when she wore the pink suit and pillbox hat in Dallas while her husband was assassinated. (Though I checked, two years later she was still wearing boxy suits.) Maybe that's part of why Ana seems a step out of time? But even though she didn't wear what the kids were wearing on the streets of London, the first lady WAS an international fashion icon, with clothes out of the major French fashion houses (though often duplicated by US shops for political reasons, e.g., the pink suit was a copy of a Chanel). Also, Jackie O Kennedy O had some glamorous evening dresses that I'd love to see on Ana while out on the town being feted. So Ana definitely could push the envelope a little more, but she isn't unfashionable. I agree that she looks matronly to me too, but I'm not sure how much that is that 60s style is what I saw little old ladies wear while I was growing up and how much it has to do with body type--these actresses looked FABULOUS when the hourglass shape was in and emphasized, now that the waif-y, androgynous, boyish bodies look best (like Twiggy, etc) they're all suffering a bit for it.
As for the hair, yes the wig is so blatantly a wig that it is hard to get over, but I HATED all those stupid hairpieces that they used to make the bouffant thing in back for the last few seasons, especially for Ana. It is completely subjective, so I have no logical reason, but I found those far uglier. I really like the idea of the pixie cut and the way PE looks (if only that damn hair were real), and for 1965 having that haircut was quite fashionable: Audrey Hepburn had a pixie cut for Roman Holiday in 1953, Jean Seberg for Joan of Arc in 1957, Mia Farrow sometime before her wedding to Sinatra in 1966 (there was a myth, which she debunked in the New York Times that he divorced her after Vidal Sasson cut her hair off for Rosemary's Baby in 1968: in fact, she cut it herself while filming a TV show while she and Frank were dating and just wore wigs for all her TV/movie work until Vidal gave her a trim in 1968), and Twiggy in January 1966, as part of the shoot that launched her career.
Also, in my googling, I came across the Museo del Traje (Museum of Costume) which is in Madrid, and while they didn't have a ton of images that I found from this period online, I found a few that confirmed Spain was up-to-date on the overall trends, particularly when it came to shapes (i.e., hourglass vs. column vs. rectangle). I didn't see any micro-minis or wild patterns in their collection from the 60s at least, though especially in evening wear there was some more definition of the waist and more vivid color than we see on Ana.
Hope I haven't bored you all to death. This all makes me very curious about Ana's pret-a-porter collection!! I definitely hope we see it next episode. It is completely true that by 1965 there were a lot of ready to wear lines that had come out in Paris, London, etc. Also, some of Spain's big fashion houses designed airline uniforms and started menswear lines just about this time, so Velvet definitely draws from the real history of fashion.
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Post by tropikaldawl on Nov 21, 2016 22:05:53 GMT -5
I have to admit I agree with a lot of what you said, especially about Pedro, Ana's career, and Ana & Alberto's relationship.
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Post by tropikaldawl on Nov 21, 2016 22:21:32 GMT -5
I have to agree with you. But beyond that, their love also seems unrealistic at times... Very idealistic, but I am ok with that fantasy! As an example... I don't get how the pain Ana has caused Alberto by choosing to not be together so many times hasn't phased him at all. Why is he never really angry with her in a way that changes his love towards her. It's admirable that nothing has phase their love. Season 1 featured Ana's suffering, Season 2 Alberto's. The end of season 2 was a happy ending. Season 3 and 4 really make you question whether they are deserving of each other and still compatible given their own personal evolution. They have at times sabotaged their own happiness. But perhaps they have just never connected with anyone else on such a deep level, hopes and dreams, and they both are drawn to what is familiar to them. That's what must keep their bond so strong. I don't agree that their love was unrealistic...or they may not be deserving of each other.A lot of things were at odds with this couple..one of them was the class divide that constantly questioned if Ana was suitable for Alberto..because of her background.Then Alberto inherited a business with financial woes...which eventually he was conned and roped into a marriage which didn't serve him well not even for the business...Then Alberto was immature and made impulsive and bad decisions like handing the family shares to the oteguis was a dumb move.Dont forget his stepmother and sister who were supposed to have his back,constantly backstabbed him and thwarted his relationship with Ana..the young man was overwhelmed and at the end of season 3..he went on self exile..not to mention his vicious crazy wife....Alberto went through some hard stuff!!! As for Ana she was equally naive and stubborn..sometimes very immature..Asking your fiancé to marry another woman...is a dumb idea.It did not solve their problems...that's why I called her naive..and when the opportunity presented itself for them to be married...she jilted him!!!It was puzzling..then the constantly breaking up with Alberto wasn't helping...the last breakup I was convinced they weren't getting back together..all of a sudden she was running around like a squirrel looking for Alberto at the airport...😂😂😂😂are you serious??I believe the separation will serve them well...Ana will gain a more matured man,and Alberto will also gain a matured woman who has rediscovered herself and a talented designer and mother.Both parents of a cute little boy...their love has evolved and matured weathering some hard times.❤️️❤️️ You may think we disagree, but I actually think we are on the same page Just that we draw different end conclusions as to it all. I definitely think the class difference was an issue for others, but never really for them. There were many such unfavorable circumstances that made their relationship difficult, but the real reason they are not together is because of themselves and no one else. The separation will serve them well because we know that they are intended to be together. But in real life, if someone hurt you so badly, would you forgive them so easily and continue to love them unconditionally without question? It's definitely very admirable, and a source of escapism for me. ❤️️ I think the way you put it as their immaturity with regards to their relationship makes a lot of sense. Luckily for both of them, they saved their hearts for each other and will get their happy ending. It wouldn't have been unrealistic for Ana to fall for someone new that she would meet during her whirlwind career (like Luisa did) or for a good Carlos, nor for Alberto to open up emotionally to someone else and bond with them and move on. Ana doesn't love Carlos so even if they did get married, it's no biggie, she would leave him in a heartbeat for Alberto.
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Post by Adrienne on Nov 21, 2016 22:24:52 GMT -5
While I totally agree that Ana and the other women on Velvet don't look as good this season, I wanted to get the facts since we are talking about a design house. I'm not an expert BY ANY MEANS on fashion history, so anyone feel free to chime in or correct me if you know better, but I've done a little online research to find out more about the changes from the early to the mid-60s (keeping in mind too that Madrid was maybe a step behind London, Paris and even New York, at least as discussed on Velvet itself). First, surprisingly (to me at least), is that Ana is wearing what were then considered mini-skirts. Mini-skirts were anything knee length or shorter. What we think of as a mini today then was considered a micro mini (at least according to the Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising (aka FIDM) museum website). Although the miniskirt was introduced by Mary Quant in 1960, it wasn't widely popular until 1965 (says the FIDM). The shorter lengths were worn with opaque tights, and probably even for someone in fashion wouldn't be considered appropriate for work (or maybe even Ana's age--I suspect "young" really means teens and early-twenties, not mid-thirties). The sleeveless skirt suit was definitely a fashionable look, and not just office appropriate--elsewhere I found a picture of Eric Clapton and George Harrison's ex-wife (she was married to them both) who was a favorite of Mary Quant (the original mini designer) in a skirt suit with EXACTLY the same cuts as most of Ana's clothes this season: a sleeveless coordinating top and bottom, with super rectangular overall shape consisting of a straight skirt and boxy top. Other than than skirt length/width, the big revolution was that women stopped wearing corsets (whether built in to their dresses or separate from them) precisely because the cuts became looser and more shapeless--think of Twiggy or Edie Sedgwick in those mod, mini dresses. There was definitely a reason they were waif types! Basically: mid-fifties, dresses pushed the body into an hourglass shape, in part by having a very cinched waist and in part very pleated and flared skirt (sometimes also with crinolines); late 50s/early 60s, the rise of the "sack dress" (which Raul refers to in his very first visit to Velvet), where the dress is more of a tube, just skimming the body, and maybe has a belt to give some shape; and then by the mid-60s, dresses became even less defined by an hourglass, were often cut into straight rectangles or A shapes, jackets/blazers as well as dresses were boxy, and designers played around more with overall shapes independent of the body. Balenciaga (who was Spanish/Basque) even developed a special kind of silk called gazar to make a trapezoid wedding gown and a four-sided cocktail dress, neither of which I had seen before but which I absolutely recommend google image searching for immediately!! They are beautiful and crazy, but I will say they bear little relationship to the shape of a woman's body! Though these are both obviously super haute couture and extreme examples, the trend of not being body conscious is true down to what women were actually wearing. Another thing I didn't know is that stylish boots and socks didn't become part of fashion until the later 60s. Because "mini" (i.e., knee-length and above) skirts weren't popular until 1965, designers didn't really start dressing the leg until after that. Fashion historians usually point to Courreges's spring 1964 runway show, where his models wore flat white boots, as the beginning of the trend, but it didn't trickle down from the runway for a few years. Style news coverage in the US and UK for boots in 1968 and hosiery in 1969 noted the trends you mention of go-go boots and knee socks with patterns (though they mention a lot of women started wearing tights/hose instead of stockings earlier, in part because then they didn't have to wear girdles and in part because if their skirts were short the top of the stocking (i.e., where it clipped to the girdle) would show). While Audrey Hepburn stayed a pinnacle of style, her most iconic looks you (might) have in mind are probably from the fifties or early 60s (e.g., Roman Holiday (1953), Sabrina (1954), Funny Face (1957), Breakfast at Tiffany's (1961))--by the mid 60s she was also wearing rectangular dresses, without a waist. (Obviously I'm sure there are exceptions to this, but I looked at her first and second wedding dresses, some magazine fashion shoots, etc). Although even though Hepburn started wearing slim pants and ballet flats in the 50s, I think they remained fashion forward and definitely popular though most of the 60s. I have to say the pants they had PE/Ana in, briefly, in this past episode were HORRIFIC. So so so unflattering. And not noticeably 60s? Or maybe I was too agog at how completely ugly and awful they were to see anything else. Clara has more of the color and pattern that was on trend for street style of the mid-60s, as I understand it. Bright colors, plaid, and geometric patterns definitely were hot. Rather than the general 60s looks, to me it seems they've modeled Ana after Jackie Kennedy: the pillbox hats, pastel colors, boxy suits (with straight skirts), big buttons, trapeze coats, even down to the oversize sunglasses and pearls in the opening scene of the season. That's a more conservative style icon (in the sense that the first lady has to maintain a kind of image that's way more traditional) than a designer would need to have, and some of the "Jackie O" looks we think of are from a little earlier. JFK's campaign was during 1960; it was 1963 when she wore the pink suit and pillbox hat in Dallas while her husband was assassinated. (Though I checked, two years later she was still wearing boxy suits.) Maybe that's part of why Ana seems a step out of time? But even though she didn't wear what the kids were wearing on the streets of London, the first lady WAS an international fashion icon, with clothes out of the major French fashion houses (though often duplicated by US shops for political reasons, e.g., the pink suit was a copy of a Chanel). Also, Jackie O Kennedy O had some glamorous evening dresses that I'd love to see on Ana while out on the town being feted. So Ana definitely could push the envelope a little more, but she isn't unfashionable. I agree that she looks matronly to me too, but I'm not sure how much that is that 60s style is what I saw little old ladies wear while I was growing up and how much it has to do with body type--these actresses looked FABULOUS when the hourglass shape was in and emphasized, now that the waif-y, androgynous, boyish bodies look best (like Twiggy, etc) they're all suffering a bit for it. As for the hair, yes the wig is so blatantly a wig that it is hard to get over, but I HATED all those stupid hairpieces that they used to make the bouffant thing in back for the last few seasons, especially for Ana. It is completely subjective, so I have no logical reason, but I found those far uglier. I really like the idea of the pixie cut and the way PE looks (if only that damn hair were real), and for 1965 having that haircut was quite fashionable: Audrey Hepburn had a pixie cut for Roman Holiday in 1953, Jean Seberg for Joan of Arc in 1957, Mia Farrow sometime before her wedding to Sinatra in 1966 (there was a myth, which she debunked in the New York Times that he divorced her after Vidal Sasson cut her hair off for Rosemary's Baby in 1968: in fact, she cut it herself while filming a TV show while she and Frank were dating and just wore wigs for all her TV/movie work until Vidal gave her a trim in 1968), and Twiggy in January 1966, as part of the shoot that launched her career. Also, in my googling, I came across the Museo del Traje (Museum of Costume) which is in Madrid, and while they didn't have a ton of images that I found from this period online, I found a few that confirmed Spain was up-to-date on the overall trends, particularly when it came to shapes (i.e., hourglass vs. column vs. rectangle). I didn't see any micro-minis or wild patterns in their collection from the 60s at least, though especially in evening wear there was some more definition of the waist and more vivid color than we see on Ana. Hope I haven't bored you all to death. This all makes me very curious about Ana's pret-a-porter collection!! I definitely hope we see it next episode. It is completely true that by 1965 there were a lot of ready to wear lines that had come out in Paris, London, etc. Also, some of Spain's big fashion houses designed airline uniforms and started menswear lines just about this time, so Velvet definitely draws from the real history of fashion. I thought this was fascinating! Thanks for researching all that. I feel like I go back and forth on her hair, so I agree that if it was her natural hair cut that way I would probably have no problem with it. Her hair has always been an issue hasn't it? Her's and Patricia's, although I much preferred the white wig on Patricia. I guess the style of the time just isn't as flattering. (And what was with those pants?!? They looked like sweat pants to me.)
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Post by tropikaldawl on Nov 21, 2016 22:25:10 GMT -5
Lara, I can understand you disagreeing with me about Alberto's character because I know he is very beloved. However, I've been rewatching some of the first three seasons and have noticed two different times where Alberto has grabbed Ana just as aggressively as Carlos ever did and once ripped the phone out of Christina's hand in season one, slamming it down and yelling at her. I'm not saying he was unprovoked by Christina, but he is not a calm tempered person. I think we tend to overlook faults in characters we like (or justify them) when we don't do that for a character we don't like. I know I do it all the time! On a different note, I was complaining about Ana's clothes, and then I watched the first half of the episode with subs (thank you so much VV!!). and noticed that Ana dress after Rita comes back to the store I actually kind of liked. So I guess I'm MAYBE being to harsh on her wardrobe. I still think it could be better, though!! I must have missed something. When was Carlos abusive? I remember him being perfect. Not until season 4 did he turn out to be 'evil'. I do think that Ana and Alberto bring out the best in each other as Lara said. I don't think Alberto is without flaws (ex. he treated Patricia really badly several times, I don't think she always deserved it - they could have put the problems of their parents' generation aside).
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Post by tropikaldawl on Nov 21, 2016 22:29:20 GMT -5
BK, that was really fascinating. This is one of the reasons I really like watching shows like Gran Hotel and Velvet because not only are there fun storylines, but I feel like I'm also learning something by watching (improving language skills, learning about a different time, different culture). Like the holiday of the 3 wise men (or 3 kings).
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Post by Adrienne on Nov 21, 2016 22:33:27 GMT -5
Lara, I can understand you disagreeing with me about Alberto's character because I know he is very beloved. However, I've been rewatching some of the first three seasons and have noticed two different times where Alberto has grabbed Ana just as aggressively as Carlos ever did and once ripped the phone out of Christina's hand in season one, slamming it down and yelling at her. I'm not saying he was unprovoked by Christina, but he is not a calm tempered person. I think we tend to overlook faults in characters we like (or justify them) when we don't do that for a character we don't like. I know I do it all the time! On a different note, I was complaining about Ana's clothes, and then I watched the first half of the episode with subs (thank you so much VV!!). and noticed that Ana dress after Rita comes back to the store I actually kind of liked. So I guess I'm MAYBE being to harsh on her wardrobe. I still think it could be better, though!! I must have missed something. When was Carlos abusive? I remember him being perfect. Not until season 4 did he turn out to be 'evil'. I do think that Ana and Alberto bring out the best in each other as Lara said. I don't think Alberto is without flaws (ex. he treated Patricia really badly several times, I don't think she always deserved it - they could have put the problems of their parents' generation aside). In the second season after Ana breaks up with Carlos, he tries to get her back and grabs her arm several times when she would try and walk away from him. The first two times did not seem bad to me at all, although everyone around stopped and stared like he had hit her. The third time he wouldn't let her go, Alberto saw and the two exchanged blows over it. This led to Ana and Alberto kissing while she was trying to clean his face. Others have called it abusive, which feels to strong a word for me. Not that what he did was okay, but Alberto has been just as aggressive, if not more, with her on at least two different occasions. (Once in season 1, episode 3; another in season 3, episode 2 if I remember correctly.)
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Post by tropikaldawl on Nov 21, 2016 22:34:06 GMT -5
I thought this was fascinating! Thanks for researching all that. I feel like I go back and forth on her hair, so I agree that if it was her natural hair cut that way I would probably have no problem with it. Her hair has always been an issue hasn't it? Her's and Patricia's, although I much preferred the white wig on Patricia. I guess the style of the time just isn't as flattering. (And what was with those pants?!? They looked like sweat pants to me.) Ah, Patricia's hair has always bothered me. For me, the red wig is slightly better than the platinum one, I couldn't stand that. Since she and Marco both speak Italian, I'm surprised there isn't more of a bond between those two.
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Post by Lara on Nov 21, 2016 22:35:07 GMT -5
Lara, I can understand you disagreeing with me about Alberto's character because I know he is very beloved. However, I've been rewatching some of the first three seasons and have noticed two different times where Alberto has grabbed Ana just as aggressively as Carlos ever did and once ripped the phone out of Christina's hand in season one, slamming it down and yelling at her. I'm not saying he was unprovoked by Christina, but he is not a calm tempered person. I think we tend to overlook faults in characters we like (or justify them) when we don't do that for a character we don't like. I know I do it all the time! On a different note, I was complaining about Ana's clothes, and then I watched the first half of the episode with subs (thank you so much VV!!). and noticed that Ana dress after Rita comes back to the store I actually kind of liked. So I guess I'm MAYBE being to harsh on her wardrobe. I still think it could be better, though!! In retrospect I remember some of those scenes, the only difference is they were A/A and Carlos, well is Carlos lol but I can totally understand where you are coming from about thinking Alberto is aggressive and hot headed. I think I've only liked the ep 1 looks. LOL I guess she can occasion score a homerun with some lol BK, I like your passion🙂 Ana does just seems a bit out of step, even what I saw from bits of her new collection. They usually design collections with future trends in mind. Her styles looked the same as always. She just seems very late 50s/early 60s to me. After JFK was assassinated, Jackie Kennedy stopped being a trendsetter when she stepped away from public life, it's 1965 and Ana is still wearing that traditional pill box hat (I don't know, I just seem to hate that hat). In one picture of an outfit we haven't seen, both top and bottoms are loose and it looks like she's wearing a sack. I liked the ep 1 look with the straight fitted skirt with the the boxy top and the dress she wore to the Cafiero dinner. I'm not saying she should wear micro mini, though ironically the actress in real life does and looks great, but it's not the character's style. The hair, oy, they never seem to get that right lol I suspect the actress opted for wigs because she didn't want to cut her hair, which is very long. In S2 when she broke up with him, he basically stalked her and grabbed quite strongly by the arm 3 different times. It was only when Alberto stepped in that he left her alone.mhenwas pretty delusional too saying that she loved him after she clearly told him she didn't.
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Post by hopelessromantic on Nov 21, 2016 22:37:17 GMT -5
I don't agree that their love was unrealistic...or they may not be deserving of each other.A lot of things were at odds with this couple..one of them was the class divide that constantly questioned if Ana was suitable for Alberto..because of her background.Then Alberto inherited a business with financial woes...which eventually he was conned and roped into a marriage which didn't serve him well not even for the business...Then Alberto was immature and made impulsive and bad decisions like handing the family shares to the oteguis was a dumb move.Dont forget his stepmother and sister who were supposed to have his back,constantly backstabbed him and thwarted his relationship with Ana..the young man was overwhelmed and at the end of season 3..he went on self exile..not to mention his vicious crazy wife....Alberto went through some hard stuff!!! As for Ana she was equally naive and stubborn..sometimes very immature..Asking your fiancé to marry another woman...is a dumb idea.It did not solve their problems...that's why I called her naive..and when the opportunity presented itself for them to be married...she jilted him!!!It was puzzling..then the constantly breaking up with Alberto wasn't helping...the last breakup I was convinced they weren't getting back together..all of a sudden she was running around like a squirrel looking for Alberto at the airport...😂😂😂😂are you serious??I believe the separation will serve them well...Ana will gain a more matured man,and Alberto will also gain a matured woman who has rediscovered herself and a talented designer and mother.Both parents of a cute little boy...their love has evolved and matured weathering some hard times.❤️️❤️️ You may think we disagree, but I actually think we are on the same page Just that we draw different end conclusions as to it all. I definitely think the class difference was an issue for others, but never really for them. There were many such unfavorable circumstances that made their relationship difficult, but the real reason they are not together is because of themselves and no one else. The separation will serve them well because we know that they are intended to be together. But in real life, if someone hurt you so badly, would you forgive them so easily and continue to love them unconditionally without question? It's definitely very admirable, and a source of escapism for me. ❤️️ I think the way you put it as their immaturity with regards to their relationship makes a lot of sense. Luckily for both of them, they saved their hearts for each other and will get their happy ending. It wouldn't have been unrealistic for Ana to fall for someone new that she would meet during her whirlwind career (like Luisa did) or for a good Carlos, nor for Alberto to open up emotionally to someone else and bond with them and move on. Ana doesn't love Carlos so even if they did get married, it's no biggie, she would leave him in a heartbeat for Alberto. The class difference wasn't a problem to Alberto and Ana but it played a prominent role...Don Emilio was constantly in Ana's way reminding her she wasn't the girl for Alberto..she in turn felt guilty and turned into a matyr trying to save velvet..gave up Alberto and later regretted it.The sudden appearance of Alberto is going to cause a wave of cold feet for Ana..which will probably bring the two men to blows and Alberto will come out on top.Believe it or not people do forgive..I have a friend her husband stepped out on her and married another.. they eventually reconciled and the man annulled his marriage to the other woman..and they are together with three kids.. 😀
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Post by Lara on Nov 21, 2016 22:50:52 GMT -5
The problem I have with the class difference is that the show selectively decides when it's an issue. Cristina being upper class and the 'right kind of girl' was her big selling point in season 1. Yet, they never really showed her as a society/country club girl. A better focus for her this season would have been her reintegration into Madrid society instead of her endless obsession with Alberto. Remember her cousin was aghast that Ana was invited to Alberto's birthday party? Do we really believe her extended family and society friends would automatically welcome her back with open arms after all she did? Her whole life was about landing Alberto and keeping up appearances in her social circle. It would have been so much more interesting seeing her humbled and trying to navigate life on the outside, so to speak, maybe having her evolve a little bit. I really dont buy her as this big career woman and she is so smug it's hard to take.
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Post by primusoars on Nov 21, 2016 22:52:49 GMT -5
Lara, I can understand you disagreeing with me about Alberto's character because I know he is very beloved. However, I've been rewatching some of the first three seasons and have noticed two different times where Alberto has grabbed Ana just as aggressively as Carlos ever did and once ripped the phone out of Christina's hand in season one, slamming it down and yelling at her. I'm not saying he was unprovoked by Christina, but he is not a calm tempered person. I think we tend to overlook faults in characters we like (or justify them) when we don't do that for a character we don't like. I know I do it all the time! On a different note, I was complaining about Ana's clothes, and then I watched the first half of the episode with subs (thank you so much VV!!). and noticed that Ana dress after Rita comes back to the store I actually kind of liked. So I guess I'm MAYBE being to harsh on her wardrobe. I still think it could be better, though!! I must have missed something. When was Carlos abusive? I remember him being perfect. Not until season 4 did he turn out to be 'evil'. I do think that Ana and Alberto bring out the best in each other as Lara said. I don't think Alberto is without flaws (ex. he treated Patricia really badly several times, I don't think she always deserved it - they could have put the problems of their parents' generation aside). You did missing some parts in S2 when Ana was breaking up with Carlos, he was abusive by not accepting the break up . Once in the workshop in front of other people pulling Ana, the second time in Pausa and again right before Alberto show up in the back door of Velvet. I think the series was trying to show Carlos has the capacity to be violent when he is desperate and things does not go his way. Yes, you are absolutely right Alberto is no saint he can be rude, inpatient and quick tempered but he bears no malice to other people, he doesn't intentionally embarrass people put them down and he is a very fair boss. His relationship with Ana was not always smooth but they understand each other well, knows what the other person needs And when they are together the chemistry was amazing.
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Post by tropikaldawl on Nov 21, 2016 23:00:43 GMT -5
The problem I have with the class difference is that the show selectively decides when it's an issue. Cristina being upper class and the 'right kind of girl' was her big selling point in season 1. Yet, they never really showed her as a society/country club girl. A better focus for her this season would have been her reintegration into Madrid society instead of her endless obsession with Alberto. Remember her cousin was aghast that Ana was invited to Alberto's birthday party? Do we really believe her extended family and society friends would automatically welcome her back with open arms after all she did? Her whole life was about landing Alberto and keeping up appearances in her social circle. It would have been so much more interesting seeing her humbled and trying to navigate life on the outside, so to speak, maybe having her evolve a little bit. I really dont buy her as this big career woman and she is so smug it's hard to take. Yes, they completely ignored her acceptance / re-integration into society. A lot was swept under the rug. I do believe that she has matured and is less naive than she was previously. I think of all of the characters, she has evolved the most. I find her newfound ambition believable and like that she is trying to pursue new business ideas like the cosmetics line and looking at other Velvet projects (such as the prêt-à-porter line) with neutrality for the most part (at least initially. She even showed she had a conscience a few times, but of course she decided to be in the 'evil' bucket for good. I would have liked to see her friendship with Raul re-develop, they claimed to be best friends in the past! Other than her alliance with Carlos, she hasn't found her place amongst the people of Velvet yet either.
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Post by Adrienne on Nov 21, 2016 23:05:03 GMT -5
I must have missed something. When was Carlos abusive? I remember him being perfect. Not until season 4 did he turn out to be 'evil'. I do think that Ana and Alberto bring out the best in each other as Lara said. I don't think Alberto is without flaws (ex. he treated Patricia really badly several times, I don't think she always deserved it - they could have put the problems of their parents' generation aside). You did missing some parts in S2 when Ana was breaking up with Carlos, he was abusive by not accepting the break up . Once in the workshop in front of other people pulling Ana, the second time in Pausa and again right before Alberto show up in the back door of Velvet. I think the series was trying to show Carlos has the capacity to be violent when he is desperate and things does not go his way. Yes, you are absolutely right Alberto is no saint he can be rude, inpatient and quick tempered but he bears no malice to other people, he doesn't intentionally embarrass people put them down and he is a very fair boss. His relationship with Ana was not always smooth but they understand each other well, knows what the other person needs And when they are together the chemistry was amazing. I wouldn't say he never intentionally hurts or embarrassed people. He was very intentional with hurting Patricia and Christina on multiple occasions, and even Ana after they broke up in season one I felt. He is a fair boss. At times he and Ana seem to understand each other really well and other times they seem to not know each other at all.
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Post by Lara on Nov 21, 2016 23:14:30 GMT -5
The problem I have with the class difference is that the show selectively decides when it's an issue. Cristina being upper class and the 'right kind of girl' was her big selling point in season 1. Yet, they never really showed her as a society/country club girl. A better focus for her this season would have been her reintegration into Madrid society instead of her endless obsession with Alberto. Remember her cousin was aghast that Ana was invited to Alberto's birthday party? Do we really believe her extended family and society friends would automatically welcome her back with open arms after all she did? Her whole life was about landing Alberto and keeping up appearances in her social circle. It would have been so much more interesting seeing her humbled and trying to navigate life on the outside, so to speak, maybe having her evolve a little bit. I really dont buy her as this big career woman and she is so smug it's hard to take. Yes, they completely ignored her acceptance / re-integration into society. A lot was swept under the rug. I do believe that she has matured and is less naive than she was previously. I think of all of the characters, she has evolved the most. I find her newfound ambition believable and like that she is trying to pursue new business ideas like the cosmetics line and looking at other Velvet projects (such as the prêt-à-porter line) with neutrality for the most part (at least initially. She even showed she had a conscience a few times, but of course she decided to be in the 'evil' bucket for good. I would have liked to see her friendship with Raul re-develop, they claimed to be best friends in the past! Other than her alliance with Carlos, she hasn't found her place amongst the people of Velvet yet either. I don't think she's matured at all since she's still up to her old tricks. She's truly crazy. She and Barbara proved how badly they were as businesswomen, so her coming in and being competent doesn't wash with me. I really think her storyline ran its course and she should not have come back this season. It feels like they really don't know want do with her and they just stuck her it into this stupid Carlos storyline. So much of this season feels very flimsy, especially Ana's storyline. Marco had so much potential and they went with the least imaginative direction with him. I'm surprised Raul didn't re-establish a relationship with Cristina, but I'm happy about it because I always felt their friendship was one sided. He hasn't had much to do with Ana either until recently.
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